108 vs 110 lobe separation

The 112-degree cam offered nearly all the low-speed and mid-range torque of the 108 cam but the peak power suffered above 5,200 rpm. Professionally ported & polished iron 4V head with titanium intake valves, stainless exhaust, titanium retainers & keepers & dual springs. How To Properly Replace Ignition Coils, Chevy 350 Ignition Coil Location And Everything About Them, Heres What Causes Your Car to Bog Down When Accelerating. The final cam was tighter still, with a 108-degree LSA. In a blower motor when the valve timing events are where they need to be the lobe sep will usually wind up in the 114-115 range on most Combos. The second cam would have a rougher idle, produce more torque and would rev quicker. Save Share. LSA CAM TEST-108 vs 112 vs 120 Richard Holdener 239K subscribers 168K views 2 years ago WESTECH PERFORMANCE GROUP FULL RESULTS-CHANGE ONLY LSA-LS CAM TEST. The 110 is probably a better choice for a performance street engine. If you take any of the . To illustrate the differences offered by changes in the LSA, we had Crane cams grind us three cam profiles that shared the same lift and duration figures, but differed only in the LSA. 108: 110: 112: 114 . The other thing is that you need to tune your ignition advance to maximize your performance. Come join the discussion about restoration, builds, performance, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, maintenance, and more! Good cam for a lower rpm street engine. changing just the LSA on my cam wouldnt make a bit of difference on vacuum operated items E ericnova72 More for Less Racer Joined Jan 13, 2007 22,026 Posts However, it is fixable. The 112-degree cam produced peak numbers of 567 hp at 6,200 rpm and 540 lb-ft of torque while pumping out 511 lb-ft of torque at 4,000 rpm. It is the angle that separates the intake and exhaust lobe for a particular cylinder, and is measured in camshaft degrees. The 402 was run with a FAST LSXR LS3 intake and matching 102mm throttle body along with stock LS3 rockers, a Holley HP management system and 7.4-inch hardened pushrods (from Comp Cams). THis is a real generalization, but the weaker your heads, the more you will like the smaller centers ( 106-108) the better the heads, and the higher the compression, the more it will like the wider centers ( 112-114)everything else falls somewhere in the middle( 108-110) Once you get close with the cam centerlines, it wont make much differance if you change it up or down by 2 degrees. Ed JTO learn to park Joined May 31, 2009 180 Posts Come here to talk with others who like to drive fast. Alternatively, if you are running a bigger camshaft to gain maximum top-end power, cam makers often suggest reducing the lobe separation angle to recover power lost in the lower rev range.. I bet you won't see a bit of difference. . For large port heads like the CNC 044's which can use the extra lift 1.4's make a noticable difference. I wouldn't assume 4 links fuel requirements will mirror yours at all. = Moderately Tight 106-104 Deg. you cannot just take a random change in a lobe separation angle and say 1 is better than the other. Fixing the ignition coils is essential when you experience issues like engine misfire and the Check Engine light that wont go off. It made 472.4 lb-ft at peak, a 21.5lb-ft disparity from the 101 cam. We borrowed Westech Performance's shop mule, a 370ci small-block Chevy and its SuperFlow 902 engine dyno and spent a day running each cam back-to-back to gauge its effect on peak horsepower, peak torque, cranking compression, idle vacuum, and the powerband as a wholeall the variables that define an engine's character on the street and track. by jim martin Mon May 12, 2003 7:10 pm, Post It affects the amount of valve overlap; that is the brief period of time when both the intake and exhaust valves are open. A wide lobe seperation is not always better than a narrow one, or vise versa. In the 106 LSA, the engine can reach the maximum torque, making the driving more efficient and saving energy. Yeah but do the experiment on the dyno and tell me your intuition is correct. A 110-degree lobe separation angle means that the peak opening points of the intake and exhaust lobes are 110 degrees apart. 110 LSA: On the contrary, 110LSA has a higher piston-to-valve clearance rate. 292S-112: 292/292 - 240/240 - .495/.495 - 112* - 3400-7200. Similarly, 110 LSA is also found to be a more fabulous performer in several mechanical aspects. Turbochargers are not as simple as they may sound; you may think of them only as power-boosting components. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. I believe you have got the idea of what you were seeking. But remember, although a broader powerband has a couple of acceleration advantages, it also comes with a few drawbacks. I've seen that Webcam cams can be ordered with either of the above. So, the 110 LSA engine is a suitable choice for people prone to be the fan of a powerful engine with mighty acceleration power. But that doesnt mean high-strung racing engines cant see gains, as well. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. But to choose the perfect cam, all of that information needs understanding. The 114 cam will give more low end torque, good midrange, less power up high. Hopefully it turns out great. However, a cam with 108 will only pull 12-16", which is not enough for power assisted accessories. The world of fuel injection is where wide LSA cams like the 113 really shine. 106 LSA: At 106 LSA, the cylinder pressure is a bit higher. Armed with more information on camshaft theory, what will you build? I normally run a 106 to a 108 because I like the "hit" a tighter LC cam has when it come up on the came. Check out the Comp Cams catalog, even the biggest hydraulic rollers use 110. A narrower lobe separation angle can provide less power but can also lead to less wear. To further minimize any dyno variations, the engine's oil and water temperatures were kept the same for each pull. This comparison highlights that the 106 LSA is a good performer in a few mechanical aspects than the 110 LSA. The custom cams we selected all featured 0.624-inch lift (both intake and exhaust) and a 232/242-degree duration split. Usually, this separation angle ranges from 95-degree to 120-degree. Well, I saw that Erson makes some nice hydraulic rollers with 108 LSAs, and I know that tighter LSAs have more midrange, so I thought they might be worth a try. A cam with 110 lobe center will pull approximately 14-18"of vacuum is borderline for that type of application. by ANT Tue May 13, 2003 1:08 pm, Post The lobe separation angle is the angle in camshaft degrees between the maximum lift points, or centerlines, of the intake and exhaust lobes. Making this the biggest obstacle to overcome when selecting a cam profile with one of our tech advisors, explaining the definition and importance of the Lobe Center. Around 70 percent of muscle-car performance cams fall into this range. Pinning the tail on the perfect cam can certainly be a difficult task. Tests have shown that, for a given cam profile, a tighter (smaller) lobe center will produce more average horsepower and a quicker revving engine. Wide LSA cams are also applicable in forced-induction applications where less exhaust overlap is required. However, in application, there is a lot more to consider. On a naturally aspirated engine, the lobe separation angle has an effect on whether the engine reaches peak torque a little earlier or later in the rpm range. Tight LSA cams make excellent low-end torque and have a beautiful power curve. Given that nitrous works best in the mid- to upper-rpm range, nitrous-powered engines need a wider lobe separation, like 112 . 110 LSA: Oppositely, the cylinder pressure is comparatively lower at 110 LSA than at 106 LSA. These issues can often be worked through by an advanced tuner, but always present a challenge and compromise in tuning strategy. Some prefer a narrow powerband, and some prefer the broader one. I am trying to pick out a hydraulic roller cam for my 351W with AFR 185s. It may not display this or other websites correctly. The 110o will make more power overall. It depends on the combination of engine size, head flow and head flow balance, as well as a big one, exhaust flow capabilities. That lopey idle that is universally loved, and part of the allure of a tight LSA cam, is actually misfire caused from a combination of exhaust dilution in the intake manifold and poor cylinder filling at idle. 4-linked72, what cam are you using that has a 108 LSA? The 290 advertised duration and 114 lobe separation would contribute to a lazy power curve. "Ninety-nine percent of cranking compression is dictated by static compression ratio and intake-valve closing point," said Comp Cams' Billy Godbold. The 110 is probably a better choice for a performance street engine. If you changed the lobe separation of a street engine from 112 degrees to 106 and didnt do anything else, adds Kaase. 110 LSA: On the contrary, at 110 LSA, the engine fails to reach the maximum torque, resulting in a decrease in torque rate. Ultimately, it makes the 110 LSA an oil-consuming LSA. More than any other component, the cam profile determines things like idle quality, mileage, and overall driveability. Now here is where it gets tricky. . Lobe seperation cant be seperated from duration,the 2 are connected.the old duntov cam had a lot less duration than many new cams so the valve overlap was not extreme and the engine ran with a gentle lope.Increase the duration by 20* and this cam would shake a 283 out of the car at idle,but then increase the lobe seperation by 4* and the motor will have a gentle lope again. If that were the only consideration, the 101 cam is the clear winner. such as 290 @.050? Thanks for the replies, particularly that link Marc, very informative. If a street car has smaller lift and duration numbers, they might run 112 or 114. Well, If I am not mistaken, you must be looking for which angle has what impact on your engine or which would be the best. You get a better idle, vacuum, and response from a 112o-114o lobe. Lobe sepsration is an advanced description for overlap.If you take a cam on a 112,and grind it on a 108,you add more overlap,the time the valves are both open.Narrower lobe centers mean more low end and midrange torque,along with a peakier powerband,and a slightly rougher idle.Tradeoffs are sensitivity to octane ratings,total timing, and air fuel ratio.A lot to swallow I know,hope this helps you. So, this LSA is suitable for your engine and its components. = Extremely Tight . I don't think your duration figures are too outlandish and with the tight LCA and high lift, it should make some big torque. OK, what is hydraboost, and how do you like how the cam performs??? also,, wider will produce a wider and more flat torque curve that doesn't fall off as abruptly up top rpms. any input is appreciated guys, thanks. I had an XE 274 in it. There are General guidelines about the effects of LSA but it should not be the deciding factor in choosing a cam. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. This wave tuning is what helps performance engines achieve volumetric efficiencies of more than 100 percent. On the surface, the camshaft's job is simpleopen and close the valvesbut beyond that topical description, it's one of the most mysterious and misunderstood engine components. Noah knows a lot about whats happening in the car industry with the latest piloting productions thanks to his professional experience. We do not stock profiles with 109 or 114 lobe centers. But, after comparing these two LSA based on a few mechanical aspects, such as maximum Torque, RPM, powerband, oil consumption, and many more, you will find the 106 LSA with better performance output. Post I just installed a Comp Cams XE262 in a 9:1 350 with stock iron heads. I also like the 106 lobe separation with the intake on 103. While a cam with a 108 lobe center will idle rougher. As a result, you can enjoy a pleasing engine outcome. If you compared these two cams side by side in identical engines, the first cam would actually have a slightly better idle and would produce slightly more peak power at upper RPM's. Comp cam hydraulic roller lifters. You can modify the lobe center a little bit but not enough to change the actual overlap of the grind. This may be of concern if you have vacuum assisted accessories, such as power brakes or steering. Pick the cam with the valve timing events that fit the engine best, forget about LSA, it is only a result of the events. I think that cam had 110 lobe sep. Im loking at a summit cam with close to the same lift and duration #s but 114 lobe sep. So, now you, Read More Chevy Transmission Wont Shift Into 3rd: Finding the Main CulpritContinue, While changing the oil on your boats lower unit, you may need to change the drain plug, too. 2023 Power Automedia. However, these rules are not absolute. The balance of midrange torque and top-end horsepower lends this LSA range to the majority of street/strip engines. thanks. Brul spun the engine over with the dyno's starters and recorded 185 psi of cranking compression. Here are the basics: higher lift values open the valves to increase airflow and longer duration keeps the valves open longer. It creates an unsteady manifold vacuum condition that, on a fuel-injected engine, confuses manifold air pressure (MAP) sensors, making it hard for them to regulate fueling. Retarding the camshaft (a higher intake lobe centerline number 108 vs. 104) will generally start the power band later in the RPM range and decrease the cylinder pressure. In reality, a cam with 220 at 0.050" and a lobe center angle of 112 will have the exact same mechanical overlap as a cam with 217 at 0.050" and a lobe center angle of 109. Again this is dependent on your shift rpm and assuming you truly have 14-1 compression. "It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you've got!" 110 LSA: You will find the complete opposite scenario here. Mike Magda is a veteran automotive writer with credits in publications such as Racecar Engineering, Hot Rod, Engine Technology International, Motor Trend, Automobile, Automotive Testing Technology and Professional Motorsport World. Lower cylinder pressure is advantageous for your engine. Do you know what the best lobe separation angle for your car engine is? All three terms are similar, as they all relate to the relationship between the centerline of the Intake lobe and the centerline of the Exhaust lobe. Since we were only changing the lobe separation angle, we had to make sure every variable (air/fuel, timing, water, air, and oil temps) was identical during testing. I have used some cut on a 110 that worked well too, but they never sounded as good as the tight ones. Contrariwise, 106 LSA car engines are the best choice for people seeking energy-efficient cars with moderate engine power. I don't know about 13 to one but I have seen 12 to one on a 350 chev in hot rod article, BUT the guy soft petals around on the street with no full throttle use and puts racing gas in at the track. The taller lobe seperation will have a longer powerband but will have to rev higher to make the power than the lower lobe seperation! A cams Lobe center angle equals intake centerline plus exhaust . by farmer Mon May 12, 2003 3:14 pm, Post camshaft is a Cranecams F238. . It had a robust powerband with tons of usable torque. Cylinder-head flow and LSA are directly related: as a rule of thumb, the better the head flows, the wider the LSA can be. L'auteur prsente une nouvelle contribution de floristique nord-africaine consacre la flore du massif du Rif et des rgions du nord du Maroc, dans le cadre gographique prdfini par le Catalogue des Plantes vasculaires du Nord du Maroc de Valds et al. And better gas mileage. If two cams are identical with the exception of lobe separation angle (we'll say 108 and 114) the cam with 114LSA will make more low end power than the 108LSA cam? On the cranking compression test, Brul recorded 175 psi, a 10-psi drop from the outgoing 101 cam. The engine will have weak performance in the low-end range.A low vacuum can also cause the brake pedal to be quite difficult to press. In terms of horsepower, the disparity between all three cams was only 6.5 hp, with a scant 100 rpm separating the peaks. It idles very well at 650 rpm with a nice lope and runs strong. Lobe Separation Angle, or LSA, is the number of degrees that separate the peak lift points of the cam's intake and exhaust lobes. The lumpy-idling 101 LSA cam churned out an average of 484.0 hp at 6,100 rpm with 493.9 lb-ft of torque at 4,400 rpm. It's the scavenging effect of the high velocity exhaust gases rushing out that pulls the fresh fuel/air charge into the chamber. dur. This causes the engine's street manners and tuning to become fickle. 108 is very tight producing lower vacuum and more of a 2 stroke "punch" powerband. The tighter the lobe center, the lower the RPM range; the wider the lobe center, the higher the RPM range. 106 LSA: On the contrary, if we look at the 106 LSA, we will find it more advantageous and energy efficient than the 110 LSA engine. = Moderate 108-106 Deg. Anybody here run a 108 LSA? by lazaris Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:18 pm, Post A cam with a 112 lobe center will idle smoother than a cam with a 110 lobe center. After consulting with many experts, you are still in confusion between 106 and 110- lobe separation angles. As you tighten the centers ( 108 ) the same engine will make MORE power through the mide range and top end. LSA is a way of summing up the relative timing of the intake-valve events (intake opening, intake closing) to the exhaust-valve events (exhaust opening, exhaust closing) in relation to each other, and it's a great approximation of how the engine will operate. I would have to say that your cam choice sounds like a winner to me. But an interestingly shocking fact is that this event escalates the air-fuel mixtures reaction rates, causing temperatures to rise and causing the problem of overheating the engine. Idle quality was rough and the vacuum gauge showed only 9.8 in-Hg (inches of mercury). 110 for sure. GRIND #: CRB3 3194 /3196 HR111. Enter lobe separation angle. 106 LSA: The overlapping is higher as 106 LSA is comparatively tighter LSA than 110 LSA. 13 The three power curves indicate that the wide (120-degree) LSA (green lines) lost considerable torque to the other two cams. Its also critical that valve overlap is kept to a minimum as the induction system can create a suction that pulls water into the motor, adds Bolander. The takeaway is simple on the surface: A tighter LSA makes more low-end and peak torque at the expense of just a few top-end ponies. Also, the wider LSA contributes to chassis stability in drag racing by avoiding the delivery of a ferocious blast of power that would break tire traction. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. While lift and duration are most often discussed when talk turns to cam timing, there is a third variable that has a decided effect on both power and personality. The other thing is that you can make more power with a smaller aftermarket cam. = Moderately Wide 110-108 Deg. Pretty much standard for an RV type cam. Brul slid the 113-LSA cam, the widest of the test, into the engine's heart and set about putting all the pieces back in place. This recommendation is only if you shift at no more than 7000. In my opinion, the rougher the idle the better! 110* LSA - lobe separation angle (lobe displacement angle) The +2* means your intake lobe centerline is advanced to obtain a 108* ICL - intake centerline and a 112* ECL - exhaust centerline. As lobe seperation spreads does the powerband. 2.1.2.4.2 Side-lobe suppression shall be provided in accordance with the provisions of 3.1.2.1.5.2.1 on all Mode S-only all-call interrogations. Knife edged & profiled 4MA Cleveland crank weighing 50lbs. 112-110 Deg. When choosing a cam, power gains shouldn't be the only consideration. This was science at work, and with data in tow, it was time to crunch the numbers and find out what was going on. For Example: A 110-degree lobe separation means that the peak opening points of the Intake and Exhaust lobes is 110 degrees apart. Selecting a camshaft for a given engines purpose usually involves a compromise between low- or high-end power options, and the lobe separation angle (LSA) is one of those factors where engine builders have to make a choice between those priorities. I'm sorry to disagree with that incredibly well written article, but lobe separation by itself is absolutely freaking meaningless. VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. We will also custom grind any of the above profiles with a custom lobe center, for an additional $20 dollars. Nitrous engines, which make plenty of power and torque, often run wide lobe separation angles to moderate cylinder pressures and temperatures. The result sounded wonderful, but it didnt rev as enthusiastically and it made 30 less horsepower than normal, says Lawrence. by mike thompson Tue May 13, 2003 4:03 am, Post The engine would idle a lot rougher and generate worse exhaust emissions largely because of unburned fuel.. That was all, and we have already reached the concluding point. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. Say you have a cam ground on a 115 and the other on a 110. LSA is a result of valve timing events. While a cam with a 108 lobe center will idle rougher. by trmnatr Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:45 pm, Post That was just a glimpse of the information you were looking for. If you drew a line that divided the intake lobe in half right at the point of maximum lift, then did the same to the exhaust lobe, then measured the distance in cam degrees between the two, that would be the lobe separation angle. So, you can enjoy a mighty acceleration power at 110 LSA. Changing the lobe separation angle changes the amount of overlap that exists during the time the intake and exhaust valves are both open, echoes Doug Patton of Pro Line Race Engines. on average with a N/A motor if you stick the two cams in at the track the tighter lsa will be faster at the expense of idle quality. 2.1.3 Transponder reply modes (air-to-ground) 2.1.3.1 Transponders shall respond to Mode A interrogations in accordance with the provisions of 3.1.1.7.12.1 and to Mode C interrogations in accordance . Chuck Lawrence of Jon Kaase Racing Engines was asked to give a 520ci BBF a Pro Stock sound, so he went with a 108 LSA in place of a more conventional 112 LSA. But i would nt go any wider than 110. Also present during testing was a set of 1 7/8-inch Kooks headers, Comp hydraulic roller lifters, and F-body oil pan. As you can see in the graph, the 101 LSA cam actually had the highest cranking compression of the batch: 185 psi. He also enjoys reading books a lot and his favorite author is Paula Coelho. Copyright 2022, S&S Motorsports LLC, All Rights Reserved - Powered by, http://www.webcamshafts.com/cam_glossary.html, http://www.newcovenant.com/speedcrafter haft/3.htm, Webcam 86A 108LC w/1.5 vs 86B 112LC w/1.3s. Come join the discussion about popular models such as the Mustang, Galaxie, Falcon, Fairlane, Torino, Shelby and many more!

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